A surgeon and a paramedic look back at the covid era
And particularly the battle against UK covid vaccine mandates
Dear Church Leaders (and everyone else)
One of the silver linings of the past few years for me has finding and listening to medics discussing health matters in a refreshingly open and honest way. And I found this conversation between London-based paramedic “Lilith” and former orthopedic surgeon Ahmad Malik particularly worthwhile.
Lilith was involved in setting up NHS100K, which I mentioned here, in the context of the threat of mandates for the so-called covid vaccines for healthcare staff:
The pushback against vax mandates for NHS healthcare staff in the UK was particularly important. If the authorities had succeeded in that context, it could have paved the way for similar mandates in schools, universities, other areas of the public sector, and beyond. Many more people would have faced a choice between taking so-called vaccines that even the manufacturers described as gene therapy, and losing their jobs.
As a society, all of us owe NHS100K a great debt, and I found plenty of food for thought from this discussion.
A transcript of much of it is below, along with additional links and comments here and there. The conversation begins in the car, before moving to the studio.
The discussion is also available here:
A “nobody” who became a hero
[00:01]
[Doc Malik] Thank you for coming.
[Lilith] Thank you for having me, because I'm a nobody.
[Doc Malik] I'm really glad you said this… You said this to me in [a] text. You said you're a nobody…
I could cry, but I'm not going to… You don't understand… at the height of the mandates, when I had [become] resigned to the fact that I'm going to lose my job and my career… he pressure of taking something that I did not want… I did not want the substance in me… the fear and anxiety that I had. And then I had just resigned [myself] to the fact… that's it, my career's over… And I'm going to go down, fighting. And then I came across NHS100K. And I don't think you realise — and I'm saying this on behalf of me and thousands of other people — how much we love and respect you guys and how you give us strength. And we were like… we're not alone. So when you say you're nobody, you're my hero. Everyone listening, Lilith is my hero… I saw you on GB News. I saw you give interviews. You're a f***ing legend…
[Lilith] Thank you… but… I'm just a face… I had nothing to lose, so I sacrificed my face to be the front of NHS100k. And I know how much we made a difference to people. So it's really the team… the people behind the scenes. Because it wasn't just us. We were just able to… collect information from people, and just bring it up. And that really helped people.
[Doc Malik] Your organisation… you represented literally 100,000+ people. And we thank you. And O think if it wasn't for you — I don't care about any other organisation taking credit — if it wasn't for you guys, NHS100K, we would have had those mandates. I think you guys stopped it… I don't know about you, but I genuinely thought, “Well, let's go down with the ship…”
[Lilith] Absolutely. That's why I did all those interviews and stuff. And that's why I put myself out there. Because I thought, if we're bringing in mandates, I'm going to lose the job and I don't care. Because I didn't want to have that forced injection in me… I need to be able to choose and I didn't want to work for someone who was going to force me to do something that I didn't want to do…
[Doc Malik] Elizabeth Hart talks about this… She's an Aussie. She's brilliant. She's a Substack writer, and she's been a campaigner against vaccines. She wasn't against [vaccination], but, when her pets died [after a vaccine], she was looking into it… She was like, “Why are they injecting our pets so much with this stuff every year? If you get immunity, why do you need to keep injecting?” And her initial campaign was, “We're over-vaccinating…” She wasn't saying that we shouldn't vaccinate. She was just saying we're over-vaccinating.
Informed consent
[05:28]
[Doc Malik] And then she was like, “Maybe we're over-vaccinating our kids too.” And then… the more she researched, the more she was like, “No, we shouldn't be vaccinated.” And now she's gone to informed consent… and the mandates are wrong. And that's for me what it's ultimately about…
[Lilith] And that's what the NHS100k stood for… the freedom to choose… your bodily autonomy… It wasn't against the vaccines… We just wanted the right to choose and not be punished for it.
[Doc Malik] [And] I think this is the biggest Achilles heel… Informed consent… Anyway, let's drive… We're going to talk in the studio, obviously. But listen, what are you doing now? Why is NHS100K not still there? I feel it was such a powerful movement, a great brand, so much loyalty. What happened?
[Lilith] I think because we worked so hard through that whole thing that, when it was over, we really just broke down…
[Doc Malik] I think the mandates and informed consent is actually huge… Even now, to this day, it's pivotal. Because it still can happen. And it still is happening. There are still places where they're mandating it. And, you know, they could easily roll it back. It's almost like it's accepted in the psyche of the population… “When the government tells us… we need to do it…” No! Informed consent… bodily autonomy… your choice...
And the problem is there's things… like in the Human Rights Act where they go, “Oh yeah, you've got freedom of speech, you've got freedom of choice.” But what people don't realise is that that same Freedom Act that grants you this freedom… which I don't think they have the right to grant because this is our inalienable rights… No one has the... ability or the power to give or withdraw these rights… These are ours. We don't even have the right to give away our inalienable rights… they just are…
But the thing is, these Human Rights Acts… they grant with one hand and take away with the other. So, for example, they could say, “You're allowed to have freedom of expression and freedom of speech.” But clause [whatever]… “If it goes against public health or the greater good, well you can't have it.” And that's the danger that we still live under… that these mandates can get rolled out any time again…
I don't know if you knew… the European Court of [Justice]… said doctors are now liable… if they gave the covid shot, they should have sought informed consent from the patient. And… no one did. No one who had the jab had informed consent…
Details here:
[Lilith] But that's what we were pushing for during the whole vaccination process. There were teams that were going out, talking to people who were getting vaccinated… giving out leaflets to say it isn't informed consent. But… during that time it was so difficult for everyone, because everyone had this media-led, fear-fuelled propaganda, that [covid] was more dangerous than... [anything] anyone had ever met before…. And it's difficult, because when you're pushed up against that… you make choices. And I think people are just dealing with that choice. And a lot of people are regretting getting jabbed… And [some] people are just blissfully unaware, and some people are just moving on. So it's difficult…
[Doc Malik] I don't know anyone who was unjabbed who regrets being unjabbed… But I know tons of people who are jabbed who regret being jabbed… people are getting sick now and they're unwell…
Official government figures do appear to bear this out:
[Doc Malik] They know they were coerced. It's very sad… but I'm always concerned that they're going to come back and do this again…
[Lilith] Yeah, because they will. Because there's always some… looming disease that's out there… It’s always that “public interest”, isn't it? “For the greater good”… that they can always use against us.
[Doc Malik] So are you still in the London ambulance service?
[Lilith] I am. Barely. Hanging on by a thread…
[Doc Malik] Do you have to be careful what you say?
[Lilith] I think people know where I stand…
[Doc Malik] But you've never been the kind of person who has not spoken out…
[Lilith] I am me, and everyone knows me as me… Even during the whole pandemic, whoever was working with me… I would always go to them and I'd say to them, “If you've got a problem with being unvaccinated, you have to go up to management because I'm unvaccinated. So if you've got a problem with working with me, you need to go up to management.”
[Doc Malik] And how many people…?
[Lilith] No one. No one dared… I was so mad during the whole thing. And I was like, “You know what? If you've got a problem with it, you say it to my face…” because I hated the whole Facebook… make these awful comments... I was ready to stand… I did.
[Doc Malik] What do you mean… Facebook… horrible comments…?
[Lilith] Work colleagues were saying, “I don't want to work with an unvaccinated... They're posing a risk. They should be fired. They shouldn't be on the front line…” And I hated that…
[Doc Malik] Was this a private Facebook group?
[Lilith] Well, it was London ambulance-based. So I think it was only for London ambulance staff.
[Doc Malik] That's what I mean, private… the public can't see it.
[Lilith] Yeah. And… all these comments were coming through. And I was like, “You can say it to my face.” So I told everyone: “I'm unvaccinated. If you've got a problem, you can take it up to management.”
[Doc Malik] We still have a similar group. It's called the Doctors on Call Room… thousands of doctors on it… And I was entered into it in the hope that it would convince me to take the shots… And it did the opposite. All I saw was groupthink. And the language and the behaviour of the doctors was just appalling. I felt disgusted.
It's like, “What the hell is wrong with you people…? Where's your compassion? Where's your empathy?” [They said things like] “Oh, the vaccinated are stupid. We shouldn't allow them to get treatment in hospital.” It's like, “What?!” One of the things that I was taught in medical school was… even if you have a murderer, you treat them like you would any other person. It's not your job to judge them. That's the medical ethics. You have to treat everyone the same…” And here were my colleagues really acting and behaving in a way that I found shocking.
And recently, one of my friends who's an orthopedic surgeon, Ian McDermott, he entered that group… you have to give your GMC number and everything… And he posted… “By the way, I understand there's some concerns with the covid vaccine…” And I got screenshots. Hundreds and hundreds of doctors piling on top... “Who is this guy? Why is he allowed to talk anti-vax nonsense? Kick him out of the group. He's an idiot. He's dangerous.” It's scary.
[Lilith] It's the way of the world… when you're on that side. And, once upon a time, I was probably on that side…
[Doc Malik] No… but you wouldn't have been mean like that…?
[Lilith] …I always think about this because I'm born and raised in Melbourne, and Melbourne… is very different [from here]. And I always think, “Would I have been different in Melbourne? Would I have followed, taken the shots, ridiculed people who didn't want the vaccine?” Because here [in London] it's just completely different… my life here is different, and working in the industry opened my eyes differently… I was always on the edge and open-minded, but covid allowed me to kind of see things very differently…
Context
Back in the studio…
[20:43]
[Doc Malik] When did you come over from Melbourne to London?
[Lilith] I'm originally born and raised in Melbourne… parents are Vietnamese, so they're boat people… came in, after the war, to Melbourne. And I came to London in 2015... I've hit my... 10 years of service with the ambulance service that I work for.
So I've got my certificate, my badge. And me and my team leader had a laugh, because I didn't think I was going to make it, particularly after the mandates. So we just had a handshake and said, “We made it.” Well, I made it, really.
[Doc Malik] Well done. And do you want to stay? Do you want to go back to Australia?
[Lilith] No, I find Melbourne to be a bit of a small town. And it's not a small town, but just going back there for visits… it feels like everyone sings the same tune. So you're either left or you're right. You either read The Age or you read The Herald Sun. And they are respectively left and right media outlets.
I wonder if those news outlets are related to organisations like the Trusted News Initiative based in the UK:
And I feel like people don't think for themselves. They parrot what the media think… And I lost a lot of friends over the mandates back there… They're just basically following what has been printed, and they've never asked me why I feel the way I do… why I went the way I went. So, no. Melbourne is just a different place now. And I like London, where it's very diverse. There’s different kinds of opinions. And I feel like basically everyone's here for the same thing, which is just trying to keep their family safe, keep the family secure, working to benefit their children… the basics of humanity… what we're all here for really, which is just to create love and create security for ourselves.
[Doc Malik] You remind me of My Le Trinh… a GP in Australia. She is literally one of the boat people. She came over when she was [very young]… and was brought up in a sweatshop… literally worked her way up, had to learn English... worked with her relatives. I think her mum died… was killed by the Khmer Rouge… really tough upbringing… went through med school, became a doctor. And then when covid came about, she was like, “Yeah, I'm not doing this. This is wrong. I'm going to treat my patients.” And then they suspended her, and she's been fighting in the courts ever since. She is a warrior…
Doc Malik’s fairly recent podcast with My Le Trinh — who became a Christian at university — is long but worthwhile if you have the time (click on the double arrow at the bottom right to increase playback speed):
[Lilith] It's even harder in Australia. That's all I know. Because… as I said, it's like a small town… you either think one way or not. And if you think a different way, you are basically ostracised…
[Doc Malik] She was saying how she was brought up being told about authoritarian regimes, about persecution, about having your freedom taken away from you. And… Australia was maybe the land of the free… and little did she think that it would become this dystopian world that she'd escaped from…
You and I are [similar]… You were born in Australia. I was born in Scotland. My parents are immigrants. And I remember my Dad telling me at the back of the shoe shop, “This country [the UK] is amazing. It's nothing like where we came from [Pakistan]. You've got all this freedom and… the press is free. The politicians aren't corrupt.” And all of this stuff… I couldn't have that conversation now with my kids…
I used to say similar things to my own children, even in the context of being brought up in the UK. But no longer, alas.
2020 and the early covid era
[24:45]
[Doc Malik] Let's go back to the covid plandemic. It's all kicking off. It's meant to be terrible. It's scary. People are dying. People are… apparently… dropping down dead in the streets. You're working as a paramedic in London… What did you see with your eyes? And hear with your ears. What was the reality of the situation…?
[Lilith] It was difficult, because everyone who worked in the service has their own different experiences. And there are work colleagues of mine who… were for vaccine mandates and who experienced a lot of covid deaths etc. But my path was just so different. It was kind of just an eye-opening experience, where there were a lot of contradictions that occurred…
The first thing was basically having these bulletins to work to… us employees… to say, “Look out for travellers from these certain countries.” And for me, it was like, “Well, this is a respiratory virus. It's going to spread really quickly. We should be looking at anyone who's travelling…” because if you know respiratory viruses, they just spread so quickly. And I just thought, “Well, we shouldn't be just looking at these certain countries. We should be looking at anyone who's travelling because it just spreads so quickly on an airplane… and travel.” And it was just basically being told by the upper management that we're just basically stupid… and you shouldn't be thinking...
And then there was just so much that was happening… all these commands coming down from the top, and then my reasoning, like trying to figure out what they're going for… my past experiences… And… there was just a disconnect…
[Doc Malik] What were the… contradictions that you mentioned…?
[Lilith] Initially it was looking out for people who were travelling from… five countries… South Korea, China etc. Whereas I was thinking… people travelling anywhere… needs to be looked at for potential covid cases. And then it was the whole masking… which initially I was for, because I thought, “Well, it's a respiratory virus. Everyone coughs and splutters. You might as well keep a lid on it.”
But then when I was going into A&Es, if I brought in a patient with a mask, they'd rip the mask off. They would shout at me. They'd be like, “Take that mask off! It doesn't need to be on them.” I'm like, “Yeah, but you don't know if they have covid. We're about to be locked down. Why would you not take this seriously?” And then, as we went on in the pandemic, it was… all these other little changes… We have our flow charts etc. to keep patients safe… we NEWS score our patients…
[Doc Malik] [For the benefit of listeners] What does NEWS score stand for?
[Lilith] I think it’s the National Early Warning Score… It's basically to determine whether a patient has a chance of deteriorating…
[Doc Malik] It's like a form of triage. You're determining how sick they are… prioritising them and stuff. And being aware and… ready for something to kick off…
[Lilith] Exactly. So, we have a threshold, which is basically a red NEWS score, or a score of three or more… should be seen at hospital, because they need to be looked at, and they have a chance of deteriorating. But during the pandemic, we were leaving people with NEWS scores of five at home… “If they hit seven, then definitely you should take them in. But if it's a five… with these other… categories, consider leaving them at home.”
[Doc Malik] Don't you find that weird…?
[Lilith] I found it extremely weird and very contradictory…
[Doc Malik] This is what woke me up. So, I fell for the fear porn and I was saying, “We need lockdown too…” for a few weeks. And then, when they were saying, “Stay at home until you're practically dead, then come up to hospital…” I was like, “This is madness. This goes against everything I've been taught in medicine.”
[Lilith] For me, it was basically the same. It was just like, “Well… we don't need to be protecting the NHS. We need the NHS to protect us. Why are we staying away from the NHS when it should be there to gather the information for research purposes?”
So for me… I know that in hospitals, you have a lot of doctors who are doing research. They enlist patients into their research, and then they discover… what treatments work, blood results etc… things to help their projects. But with covid, it was like… this ban, this new deadly disease… brand new, deadly… but we're not going to research into it. We're not going to bring these people into hospital where we can conduct this research. We're going to leave them at home, and hope for the best…
Despite the fact that, on 19th March 2020, four days before the announcement of lockdown, the UK government had announced that “COVID-19 is no longer considered to be an HCID [High-Consequence Infectious Disease] in the UK”:
As noted in this post, the inconvenient truth is that the death rate increased only after the first lockdown began and the “covid response” began. When people panicked. When people were terrified by their governments. When people were told, “Don’t come into hospital if you can help it.” According to the UK Office for National Statistics, prior to lockdown, the number of recorded deaths had been at, or even below, normal levels for the time of year.
[Doc Malik] That's a bit weird, isn't it [leaving sick people at home]?
[Lilith] I found it weird... But I just thought, “Well, the best place for a patient should be in hospital, where they can be monitored. Blood results can be taken daily… see what is changed. And where you've got the scans, you've got all the examinations that you can do, and you've got treatment there…
[Doc Malik] And early support… fluids… antibiotics. You know and I know that most respiratory infections... what really gets to people is that secondary bacterial infection. [So] get the antibiotics… Dehydration… it's very, very simple [to treat]. Get the fluids in them. Maybe a little bit of supplemental oxygen. And antibiotics. Boom. Am I right?
[Lilith] Yeah, but apparently we're wrong, because so many people were left at home…
Healthcare staff were following covid protocols such as the document NG163, COVID-19 rapid guideline: managing symptoms (including at the end of life) in the community, which is no longer available on the NICE website, but can be viewed e.g. here (archived version) or here (pdf, c/o this related article):
Here is the antibiotics data from OpenPrescribing, which shows NHS prescriptions in England:
In contrast to the peaks in the winters of 2019/2020, 2021/2022 and 2022/2023 (and to a lesser extent 2023/2024), the number of prescriptions for antibiotics was remarkably low during Spring 2020 (the “height of the pandemic”) and Winter 2020/2021.
[Doc Malik] When I look back, I remember they were saying ambulances were queuing to get into hospital… there were so many sick people. Was that happening? Or was there the sick people because people were being left at home right to the bitter end? And that's what was then causing the problem? What was happening?
[Lilith] There was a combination of things. So, there was a big buildup before lockdown… of people who were unwell, but we were normally busy anyways during winter.
[Doc Malik] We always have a winter crisis...
I am reminded of seemingly annual headlines such as these:
[Lilith] At that time, during covid, I'd been working as a paramedic for five… six years. And my local hospital was getting queued up. We were getting queued up longer and longer. When I first started, we were hitting the 15-minute mark. The next year would be 30-minute delays. The year after that would be an hour… an hour and a half, to the point where we were queuing in corridors… maybe 20 crews… And we would be there for a good two, three hours. That was a normal winter pressure, where the hospitals, for some reason, don't expect respiratory viruses… don't seem to know how to cope with people with respiratory viruses… And still, to this day, they still seem to not be able to manage people who are unwell during that period.
Before it all kicked off with the whole trickling of the news from China, we were busy anyway, so we were starting to queue up. And then obviously people started getting scared. [Even with] the normal respiratory viruses… [people] freaked out because they were listening to the media. And so we were getting more calls because they were like, “Is it covid? Is it covid?” [We could only answer] “We don't know. We're not doing any testing. We don't know.” And so we did have those massive queues, but then the moment we locked down… quiet.
So normally… on a night shift back then, I could do six to eight jobs. But once we hit lockdown, in the height of the pandemic, I was doing two jobs a shift. We had time to rest. We had time to sleep… Time to dance and karaoke…
And it was the same with A&E's. So… as awful as it sounds, we took a breath and rested, because we [had been] so punished for the past five… six years… probably longer for people who'd been working for longer. It was just so busy at that time all the time that, when [covid lockdown] came, we breathed a sigh of relief…
[Doc Malik] Wow…
[Lilith] But that was during lockdown… people being told to stay at home. And then it got busy again once lockdown lifted, once we had [Eat Out to Help Out] to get people back out into the community... And then [druing] the next lockdown we were busy again, probably even busier…
[Doc Malik] And did you see a lot of coughing and spluttering? Why were you busy? Was it just things that had been missed, and people just presenting now with other problems? Or did you see this respiratory illness like never before? Was it any different than the previous years, or was it pretty much the same…?
[Lilith] For the first lockdown, we had a few people who just died… apparently suddenly. But… it wasn't anything different. There wasn't any clues to any coughing or spluttering. They had co-morbidities. They were dehydrated. They had diabetes. They were quite unwell. Second lockdown… more people were scared. So they had their normal respiratory viruses… thought it was covid, would call us… because they had fear of dying… So we were busy in that aspect…
[Do Malik] But clinically, you didn't see anything…?
[Lilith] For me personally, we did have a few people who had that whole “happy hypoxia” thing where they had low oxygen saturations, but they were still conscious… and… were able to tell us quite clearly what was happening. So there was those kind of abnormalities. But then, with covid, it started to morph. You no longer had those glass nodules found on chest X-rays. It was just this blanket fever, cough… all that normal infective kind of symptoms. So it was like this brief moment where covid was clearly defined. And then it became a blur into a normal respiratory virus.
[Doc Malik] I had something in January 2020… But I don't know what it was… This is even before covid was announced. It was… looking back… I had that dry barking cough and I had the loss of sense of smell and taste, and that pounding headache and fever. And I'd never had anything like it before… So when people say to me that, “Oh, I don't even believe there was anything…” no, I think there was something… It was something. I just don't know what it was.
[Lilith] I remember that in October before it all kicked off, a lot of my classmates… I do kickboxing… they came down quite heavily with something… Normally they're quite fit and well, but they were taken out by some respiratory virus where they were coughing for quite a long time afterwards… their recovery was a bit longer. So potentially there was something in the midst back in October.
According to this paper, which investigated the presence of covid antibodies in people enrolled in a prospective lung cancer screening trial between September 2019 and March 2020, “SARS-CoV-2 RBD-specific antibodies were detected in 111 of 959 (11.6%) individuals, starting from September 2019 (14%)…” (emphasis added):
[Lilith] I worked with a work colleague who had this… extended… cough… Her cough was so bad that our patients were asking her if she was all right. And obviously we've got a sickness policy… She didn't want to trigger it. Obviously she's come to work… better than before, but still unwell. And I've caught what she's had. And then… I had to travel. So I travelled and then became unwell. And I spent most of my time in bed at my friend's place in Amsterdam… this was January… 2020…
[Doc Malik] Same time as me. We got the same thing…? It was rough, wasn't it?
[Lilith] Yeah, I was just out of it. I had a fever. I just rested.
[Doc Malik] That's what I mean. Normally I have a sniff and I get on with it, but this was... it knocked me out. I had a fever and I was flat… had no energy. Just going up the stairs was exhausting.
[Lilith] But I didn't have the whole loss of smell… anything like that. The loss of smell I had was the next year. And that was only like a three-day cold... where I couldn't smell a marshmallow, which I was very sad about. I was like, “I can't smell this marshmallow. I can't taste it either. So I must have covid.” But obviously… if I had have had covid back in 2020, then… 2021… I've just recovered a lot quicker.
I tested positive for covid in Autumn 2021 and had a very similar experience to what Lilith describes. I felt better after only a few days, but lost around 2-3 kg in weight, which I didn’t put back on again for several months. (I was in the habit of weighing myself daily, and I did not change my diet during this time.)
Vaccination, health and the NHS generally
[38:37]
[Doc Malik] So… this whole time, like you're just… a normal person. You're not down any rabbit hole. You're not an anti-vaxxer. You're not a conspiracy theorist. You're just a normal person getting on with your life…?
[Lilith] Yeah, I'm more open to ideas. So, I'd like to listen to things. But not as much as I do these days.
I mentioned that… I used to live in Melbourne. [And] I think Melbourne does have a big anti-vax culture… there are people who are against vaccination and then there's the other team who pooh-pooh people who like to have informed consent and who want to make choices in their lives and for their kids' lives. And I was probably of the camp of who did pooh-pooh these anti-vaxxers. But that was just the way it was. It was the media presentation… I was... taught to be left… believed everything the media was printing.
But now that I look back, I'm like, “You know what? I think we should have a choice, and we should be able to make those choices without the punishments that come around with it.” Because I know in Australia… you do get punished. You get… your education revoked etc. There's a lot of push to be vaccinated before you enter public schools. So a lot of people who choose to vaccinate or [not] vaccinate their kids choose to homeschool as well, which is probably the best, considering how institutionalised education is…
[Doc Malik] Has your experience changed… your views about the media and about the government and about vaccines? Are you still the way you were?
[Lilith] No… you know [some people]… say that you “wake the sheep up”… I was one of those sheep who got woken up!
While referring to the majority of the population as sheep might seem somewhat pejorative, it has occasionally struck me that Jesus often uses much the same imagery.
[Doc Malik] So you don't want a flu shot? A bivalent… whatever…?
[Lilith] Before working here in London, I never had the flu shot anyways, but going into working in London... I took the flu shot once because I thought that was the right thing to do. But I was so sick that year…
[Doc Malik] That was the same as me. Yeah. And I got hay fever after that… I've had hay fever ever since. The one fracking time I took the flu shot. And... I've never felt so rough. I was like, “I'd rather take my chances with the flu than have this… shot again…”
[Lilith] The next year they offered it to me again, and I said no, because I triggered off my absence policy. So I was in for a formal review for being sick. And I thought, “No. I just felt awful with it. Let's just see how I go with my natural immunity… see if I can fight off these coughs and colds. And I'm still getting seasonal coughs and colds, but that's probably related more to my diet, my poor diet.
[Doc Malik] You’ve got a poor diet…?
[Lilith] I don't eat enough greens… Too many cakes, donuts… then vegetables. And I do notice that if I'm going hard with the carbs and the sugar, then I will definitely get sick.
[Doc Malik] 100%. I hardly have any greens. I have lots of meat. But it's fresh, wholesome meat. And I have some veg. Don't get me wrong… I try and eat seasonally. So right now there's a lot of root vegetables. So I'll be having… sweet potatoes… we've got a turnip waiting to be cooked. So it'll be stuff like that… carrots, cabbage. And then, as the weather gets better, I'll get salad. I’ll feel like eating salad. But the mainstay of my diet is meat.
[Lilith] People do their carnivore diet and they rave about it…
[Doc Malik] And when I have carbs, especially processed sugar… no, not good for me.
Yeah. I know it's not good for me, but I like the taste… and [then] I pay for it.
[Doc Malik] Okay… so… you're doing your work. You're having a nice quiet time during the first lockdown… like a lot of places tell us. And they lied. They said, “It's overwhelmed. We have to save the NHS.”
Someone said to me, “Would you trust the NHS?” And I said, “I wouldn't trust anything that's an entity and not a human being…” The NHS is not someone that I can go and shake hands with. It's a blob... You don't trust the blob. You trust, ideally, individuals and people you literally eyeball… physically see, shake hands with, connect with… that's who you trust. You don't trust an entity…
Becoming an activist
[43:40]
[Doc Malik] [And] the NHS wasn't being overwhelmed [in 2020]. There were some things happening, but probably because of the fear and the protocols and the guidelines that were being given, which were just nonsensical. We know that masking doesn't work… lockdowns don't work… social distancing is just nonsense. When did you start becoming an activist…? What happened? When was that switch flipped?
[Lilith] Frontline… we weren't busy. I think in the wards they had a totally different experience. And for us on the frontline… we were trying to fight for our patients, because those symptoms that they were saying… with covid… were so generic for any infection. So we were taking old people in with urine infections, but, because they had a fever, they were being put into covid wards etc. And… I was trying my hardest to fight for them to keep them out of the covid wards, because it wasn't covid…
[Doc Malik] Everyone's being funneled in…
[Lilith] Funneled in… there were people who were placed in covid wards who were clearly not covid… people with vulnerabilities etc. These are stories that I hear from members of the NHS100K… but from my personal experience as well… there were people who were clearly not covid but, because they met that criteria of fever etc, they would just be put under the covid umbrella.
[Doc Malik] Wow. And that's dangerous. Because… not only are you just inflating the numbers of people so-called with covid, but you're giving inappropriate care…. Instead of recognising that a person's got a UTI [urinary tract infection]… needs fluid… needs antibiotics, you're now just concentrating on something completely different…
[Lilith] Yeah, but that was when we weren't able to test... It was just a generic… “Let's just cover ourselves…
[Doc Malik] I don't believe in the test….
[Lilith] Yeah, there's stories about the test as well that I have…
[Doc Malik] What do you mean?
[Lilith] I spoke to a police officer… their team had to test, and he didn't put it up his nostrils at all. He just put it straight back in, and it came back positive…
[Doc Malik] People would be dipping it in pineapple juice and whatever… and it would come back positive. Or dipping in water, and it'd be like… what the hell?!
[Lilith] All the kids were dipping it in a juice box, just to have everyone off [school]… There's a flaw there that was never addressed…
[Doc Malik] It was over-cycled. It's testing for what? We don't know... It was... a garbage test.
[Lilith] Yeah, but it made people feel safe…
[Doc Malik] But it also reinforced the idea that there was a deadly pandemic. And there wasn't…
It was when the government refused to disclose the official false positive rate for covid tests that I first knew for sure that something bad was going on. The Department of Health’s Lord Bethell stated, in a written Parliamentary answer in October 2020, at least six months after covid PCR testing had been introduced, that “the United Kingdom operational false positive rate [for the PCR test] is unknown”.
For more context on the PCR test, see e.g. this post featuring Kary Mullis, winner of the 1993 Nobel Prize in Chemistry “for his invention of the polymerase chain reaction (PCR) method”, and who around that time stated that, “with PCR… you can find almost anything in anybody”:
[Doc Malik] Anyway, back to what made you switch…
[Lilith] It was lockdowns... lockdowns extended for more… When Boris Johnson made the announcement that we're going to lock down, I knew we were going to be locked down for a longer time than the three weeks that he was saying. Because it's just impossible to lock down for three weeks…
[Doc Malik] Two weeks... Remember, it was two weeks to flatten the curve…
[Lilith] Well, whatever time he said, I was like, “No, we're going to be locked down for a good two years.” Because that's just what I felt was… the timeline before we got everything under control. And I was like, “I don't want to do this. Three weeks is not going to be three weeks. It's going to extend.” But everyone was like, “No… it's two weeks… it'll be fine.” And obviously he extended it. So it was… three weeks and they extended more and more…
And then I think at work we were getting more calls with people who were anxious because they weren't going to work. They were struggling to pay rent. They had kids at home. The area that I work in, I think, for the first lockdown was hit the hardest because it was multi-generational households, multi-occupancy households, poor socioeconomics... People were struggling. So they were worried about paying their rent… paying their bills. Are they going to go back to work…
Personally, I had more of an increase… anxiety call-outs…. palpitations… people who were stressed. I went to one family… in a multi-occupancy household…. one room, Mum and Dad, and I think three young kids under six... No backyard…
Even now, the professional-managerial classes apparently have little or no clue what it was like for the poor and vulnerable. Many seem to have little or no compassion or empathy, and, in my experience, don’t even pay lip service to such people, even in a church environment:
And when I raise the matter with the leaders at the church I attend, I just get ignored. Even though the Bible says, “Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves…” I sometimes wonder how many people would have to raise the matter for it to make any difference.
[Lilith] [In that sort of context] Of course you're going to go bonkers. And they were like, “What do I do? I don't know what to do. I have chest pains.” It's like, “Well, of course you've got chest pains. You're looking after three kids under six who can't go anywhere.” There's no internet for them because internet costs money. There's no backyards for them. They're not allowed outside. You can't go to the park because they were taping up the playgrounds.
[Lilith] People were just going crazy with this lockdown. And I thought, “This lockdown can't happen anymore… I've had enough of it. And I lived alone then. And I was scrolling through Instagram… everyone's having this beautiful life… these big spacious homes, cooking bread, internet all the time. And I was just sitting in my own little house going, “My life is not about work. I need to go out and do the things I normally do to feel active… to feel social… and I'm not allowed to do it. I don't want to be in this position.”
And… I saw a sticker that was about a protest, and I think it was Stand Up X. So I had a look at the website and what they stood for. And then I had a look at what protests were on with them, went to a few of them and just kept going. And then I think they had that big one… in [maybe] March… 2021.
I am reminded of this six-minute film of the massive protest in London in April 2021. If you haven’t seen it, I recommend watching at least some of it:
If you were previously unaware of such protests, please can I urge you to pause and consider why that might be. And to think about what else we might not be hearing or reading about. And to ponder the extent to which the mainstream media tells the truth generally…
[Lilith] For the first year, I was playing the game, wearing the mask, trying to be good. And I think it was first the mask [that] started to frustrate me, because I was like, “It's not working. It's not doing anything at all. People are still getting sick regardless of whether we wear a mask or not.”
[Doc Malik] Well, you know the data, don't you?
[Lilith] The data is... no statistical difference whether we wear a mask or not.
[Doc Malik] It’s like trying to keep a mosquito out with a football… net. It's laughable… It doesn't even make sense.
[Lilith] But back then I was like, “Let's do the good thing because I know that most of the time… before covid… I was getting coughed on… all those particles… it does make you sick. So I was like, “Let's just wear a mask. Let's be good.” And then by the end of it, I was like, “Stuff it. I don't want to wear this mask. I'm sick of it. I'm sick of suffocating all day.”
[Doc Malik] I never thought I'd be the kind of guy who would go on protest marches either. And here I was. I was like, “Here I am... centre of London… protesting, holding a placard.” I never thought I was going to be that kind of guy…
[Lilith] I only thought there was going to be 30 of us. And it was just masses of people. And it was the happiest moment of my life, because I knew I wasn't alone…
[Doc Malik] And they were all normal people... The first time I thought I was going to go on a protest march, I was like… “Who's going to be here?” And then suddenly you just saw normal people and families and happy people…
[Lilith] It was such a relief to know that you weren’t alone.
[Doc Malik] I was just here in my garden. I was locked down… couldn't go to the private hospital…couldn't do anything… stuck at home with three kids. And I'm not being ungrateful. At least I've got a garden. I could look up at the sky. I was having barbecues. I was doing a lot of work, digging out our pond… filling it in.
I was alone… very cut off. I wasn't speaking to any of my former colleagues… They were all in the NHS and loving it. They were out in the garden, paid to do nothing… not operating anymore. And they were like, “What have I got to worry about?” But… I wasn't in the NHS anymore, so I wasn't getting paid. So I was struggling. I was like… “How am I going to pay the mortgage? I've only got so much.”
You know what it's like? You only have… two months of savings in your bank account. If you don't earn, then you're like, “Woah! What am I going to do now?” So that was a lot of stress for me. But my colleagues in the NHS couldn't give a flying… I found that the people who had government jobs, or got furlough, they were like, “Yeah, great… at home… chilling…” Whereas people who work for themselves… self-employed… entrepreneurs… we were all struggling. It was not a good time. The government never helped us. They weren't like, “Here's a handout.” Tough.
[Lilith] I know definitely… in the NHS, it was just a break for everyone, because we'd been under so much pressure. But also… there were people who were being furloughed. I spoke to… a rehab nurse, and she asked her bosses if she could retrain into respiratory rehab… and they denied her, which I thought was interesting because… obviously with covid… it's all respiratory-related. And she knew that… she could retrain and go back into work. But they denied her the training. They said, “No… we don't need you…”
[Doc Malik] I've had an NHS manager on the show, and she tells me that she walked through the hospitals at the height of the lockdowns, and it was dead quiet. So I know you're saying the hospitals were busy, but...
[Lilith] Potentially… I was never there…
[Doc Malik] I've also got an A&E doctor who's told me it was dead quiet, and his boss actually said, “Hey, can we do… TikTok dances?”
[Lilith] There were a few nurses who did…
[Doc Malik] And [it’s] more than one doctor who told me that… another doctor who doesn't want to be named said the same thing. He was like, “It was… complete nonsense. We were dead quiet…”
The pressure to stay anonymous
[54:36]
[Doc Malik] And talking about names… you're not actually Lilith, but you can't say your real name… And I think… it's important to mention this, because it reflects on the culture and environment that we live in, and the risks that you're taking. Can you just explain that?
[Lilith] Yeah, so I went by my online nickname Lilith. During uni, we all had online nicknames, and I chose Lilith. And then when you're getting onto these groups… with Telegram etc. I just continued to use my online nickname. And it was just easier to introduce myself as Lilith because that was how people knew me. And I just kept going with it. But also it kind of gave me a slight protection, because I'm still working. And the moment you name yourself… you get into another world of trouble…
[Doc Malik] Oh, trust me, I know… You saw what happened to me…
[Lilith] Yeah, I heard what happened… Even just mentioning work… I can't name them… it's pretty obvious, because I'm working in London as a paramedic. But… the technicalities change when you start naming it… And even work colleagues who did see me on the news etc… they sent it up to management. [They said] “Look at her. She can't do this.”
[Doc Malik] Your colleagues dobbed in on you?
[Lilith] Yeah. There was a video of me on Sky News that they circulated. And they sent it up to management. And I know who they are. And obviously they wanted something done about it. But because I didn't name myself, because I didn't name my workplace, and I was not in uniform, they can't do anything about it… So my online name has to keep going, because the moment I name myself, it kind of changes everything… as you know with your professional councils etc., it changes…
[Doc Malik] You get meetings, then you get investigations, then you get suspended, and then you get your licence taken away. Does that sound familiar to you?
[Lilith] Yes… I'm on a formal final written warning…
[Doc Malik] So, despite your anonymity, despite not wearing the uniform, despite not naming your bosses, you're on a final written warning?!
[Lilith] Yes, but that's because I'm non-compliant, and I was non-compliant during covid…
[Doc Malik'] Non-compliant in what way?
[Lilith] Well, we have policies… One of our policies was… with cardiac arrest, you're meant to be in full FFP3 masks, Tyvek suits etc. So I went to this job where it was an outdoor cardiac arrest. It was in the height of Omicron. I presented these facts to them during the meeting, but of course they don't take notice of it. What was it… 80% had been vaccinated with at least the first shot…
But this gentleman, unfortunately, he drank poison. So I think he had… industrial grade pesticide… And obviously it's after covid… the lockdowns are still happening. He's probably lost his job... He wanted out…
[And] I went in. I wore a surgical mask because that's just what I did. And then the team leader came in [and asked] “Where's your FFP3?”
[I replied] “It fogs up my glasses. I don't want to wear it.” They told the incident response officer. The incident response officer gave me an FFP3 [mask]. I put it in my pocket… [and] kept going. And then we decided to load to hospital.
I tried to get in the back… because I was attending… to continue patient care. The team leader was there… [and] said, “You can't be in here with the surgical mask.” I said, “Fine, you do the work then.” So I just drove one of the vehicles up to hospital. They obviously didn't like my non-compliance. And so they reported me, and that got taken up to a formal investigation. And obviously I'm found to be breaking policy, which is a no-no. So I had my first formal written warning. And my more recent final written warning was just because I was arrested during some of the protests, and I failed to tell workplace… which is fine. It's part of the policy that I'm supposed to tell them when I'm…
[Doc Malik] Oh, Lilith, I love you so much. Can I just tell you something? I thought I loved you before I met you… I love you so much. The walking, talking, “Do not comply.”
[Lilith] I just refuse to… but I know that part of our policy and our work contract is… you're meant to tell them about any arrests, cautions etc. But this was a protest during a time when… we were all facing vilification… people hated us for what we stood for.
There was no way that I was going to get a fair meeting. So I chose not to tell them, because it's my right to protest anyways. So I didn't tell them about that, but then it flagged on my DBS [Disclosure and Barring Service check]. But I thought that had all been cleared up and done, because the allegations that they had [against me were] thrown out of Crown Court. The only thing was… I paid a fine for a charge, which I just didn't realise. I was just happy to not go through Crown Court. So I paid that, and I just didn't think about it.
And I failed to notify them… [it] flagged up on the DBS, and they said, “What is this?” And I said, “I don't know. You tell me.” And then the charge came up and I said, “Oh, okay.” And I explained to my team leader what happened…
There are a lot more significant charges and cases out there within my workplace, and these people get moved to different areas as opposed to getting reprimanded. So I just think this is ridiculous. I was ready to be fired, and I was ready to go to the media, because I think it is everyone's right to protest. And it has nothing to do with work. I wasn't saying things against the vaccine at work, but I was advocating for patients who felt harmed by the vaccines… I was advocating for them. I was reporting through the Yellow Card scheme with the MHRA. So I was more advocating for them. And I was in a position to do so. But it wasn't like I was saying, “Don't take the shot.” I was more like, “Well, consider it…”
[Doc Malik] Instead of being reprimanded and being given a written final warning, you should have been given a medal and honoured… You're protesting… Every human being should do that now, because if something wrong is happening, and you're seeing something wrong, you should speak up and do something about it. It's the fact that not enough people are bothered that we're in the sh*t show that we're in…
You're speaking up for people being injured by the vaccine. You're defending medical ethics. You're defending informed consent. You're highlighting a medical problem. That's… [a] great thing… they should say, “Well done, Lilith.” But instead, they give you a written warning…
There's a doctor... who… sexually assaults a patient and gets suspended for three months or six months or whatever. And he's back at work... But [ethical] Dr Sam White says, “Do you know what? I don't want to give this toxic injection. I think it's dangerous. The pandemic was…” And he is now struck off…
[Lilith] It's the same in my service. There's… a sexual misconduct, and they still come back. And then I've got my right to protest in my private life… and I'm on a final written warning… But… I don't have anything to lose, so I can do a lot more than most other people.
[Doc Malik] Why have you got nothing to lose?
[Lilith] Well, I don't have family. I don't have connections. I don't have ties. I can be sacrificed, if that makes sense.
[Doc Malik] You’ve got a mortgage?
[Lilith] Well, now I do. But back then I didn't.
[Doc Malik] What happens… if you couldn't do this job, what would you do?
[Lilith] There's always a way out. I always think that there's another path for you, regardless of what you choose…
[Doc Malik] I disagree… You had nothing to lose?
[Lilith] I have nothing to lose. I've got no ties, no commitments.
[Doc Malik] That's what I'd disagree with… I think what you're trying to tell me is that basically... you have a mindset of when you see something wrong, you will call it out rather than live the lie… no matter what price will come. And whatever they throw at you, it's all right because you know that you can pick yourself up and make it work. And they can take your job away, and they can take your money away and they can take your… titles away. But you're like, “It's all right. I'm confident and comfortable in myself. I will face the unknown and I will make it work.”
[Lilith] My integrity is more important to me. And I think my work colleagues know that. They always tell me that… they don't have to agree with me, but they like the fact that I stick… to my principles. So I get that quite regularly now.
[Doc Malik] I'm going to ask you a question… I think you're going to prove my point... So you've got family now. You've got a little baby boy or girl, right?
[Lilith] Okay, hypothetically, yeah.
[Doc Malik] Hypothetically. Okay. You've got a mortgage, right? You've got your… job. And this happens all over again. Are you going to shut up and stay quiet? Or are you going to do what you did and you're going to tell your son, “This is what you need to do in life, and I'm setting an example for you,” and you're going to pick yourself up again, and you're going to speak the truth… Are you just going to be quiet and just go along… or are you going to do the right thing?
[Lilith] It's so hard because I know having a family changes things, and you start becoming more protective… I think that's why a lot of people don't stand up for themselves because they still want their kids to be part of society…
[Doc Malik] My kids are part of society. I'm doing everything because of them…
[Lilith] It's hard to say. I'd like to think that I would still stand up and put myself out there. But I think the problem is, with the way the world is going, you are more likely to be black-bagged these days. Or at least we're heading that way. And that's my concern about censorship etc.
[Doc Malik] I don't think you would change…
[Lilith] I would like to think that… because I don't think that I could live with myself if I didn't stick to what I believed in. And I think that's probably a lot of my issues. Or at least the trouble that comes towards me is… that I am unwilling to fold. My team leader tells me that.
The more recent thing is giving over my data to a third-party company. And I refused to do it. And he said, like, “Just do it, because we don't want you in trouble, because you're almost past your…” October 2025 is when my final written warning ends.
And he said, “Just sign up, just give your data.” And I had a look at it, just to appease him. And I just said, “No, I can't do it. I can't give my information to this third party, when I can go direct to the source.”
So it's basically about a driving licence check. You can go straight to the DVLA… get a share code. We've done it for the past 10 years that I've been here. But now upper management want to change that. They want to hire this third party company… make it more automated. But in return, you have to forfeit your information. And I'm very particular about my data privacy. I want to keep it as close to me as I can, because I don't want my data out there. And that's going to get harder as we get into AI etc. But… I just can't break that principle of signing up to them.
[Doc Malik] This is what I'm telling you. That's the person that you are…
NHS100k
[1:10:28]
[Doc Malik] Okay, you've gone on a few marches now. How did you go about collecting a bunch of misfits and troublemakers to create NHS100K? And was it 100,000 people in the healthcare [system] who hadn't been vaccinated? Or did you just pluck that number out…? Or was it more? Where did you get that from? Were you able to validate it…? Go back to… the group, the core. Who were you? How did you meet…? Tell me about that story.
[Lilith] I went to a few protests. I found some work colleagues… out of the area that I work out of. I saw some of them going to a protest and… [one of them]… she linked me into an ambulance focus group… Before the vaccine mandates were ever mentioned, we had an ambulance-specific group [that] was against everything that was happening… against the whole covid thing… against lockdowns.
They… started to create and plan because they heard the care workers were going through their vaccine mandates. And it was just unfortunate that we just didn't hear it in time… that we couldn't support them… because I think obviously they had their mandates come through, and a lot of people lost their jobs or… were forced to be vaccinated. And so that was a fight that we weren't able to help them with, because we just didn't hear about it until too late, which is really unfortunate.
And so when their mandates came through, we knew that we were going to be next. And a few members started to get together. And I thought, “Well, I want to make a difference as well.” So I joined in with them and we created a little core group.
[Doc Malik] So were you one of the co-founders?
[Lilith] There was probably about seven or eight of us who basically said, “We need to do something…”
[Doc Malik] That's what I mean. So you're one of the co-founders?
[Lilith] Yeah… I think we had this conversation about imposter syndrome. So I don't think that I'm anybody special. I was just part of this movement.
[Doc Malik] Listen, Lilith… there are thousands of people listening to this podcast... And I can tell you… they think you're an amazing person. They think you're a hero. I can tell you right now, everywhere around the world, there will be people listening to this episode going, “Lilith, you have no idea.” They love you.
[Lilith] It's good to be able to make that difference for people because it was really a hard time for everyone. And I understand how lonely people felt, because I felt the same. And I just chose to be more public as part of the group because everyone else…they wanted to keep their privacy. They didn't want to be known, but I was happy to be the scapegoat, the sacrificial lamb, to put myself out there because, like I said… I had nothing to lose. I wanted people to stand up and fight for themselves, and I wanted to have them be empowered.
[Doc Malik] No, you had everything to lose, but you were willing to lose it. That's... what you're saying… I don't want to hear that you've nothing to lose… No, you were willing to lose [everything]... God bless you.
And we should say that the invitation was out… you suggested, “Can I bring some other people as well… it's not just me.” You don't want the limelight, because you don't want fame… And other people didn't want to come… they're a bit shy... but they also don't want that exposure… they're still working. Again, credit to you for stepping up and saying, “No, people need to hear this.” Thank you.
So... Those other people are still working?
[Lilith] No. I think… two of our paramedics have quit… went into different pathways. I think some are still in the industry. I'm not 100% sure. Because, as happens with everything, we all start losing touch with each other…
[Doc Malik] So you got together… created it. Who came up with the name NHS100K?
[Lilith] I don't know if I can name them, but one of the guys… created three different domains, and we ended up choosing NHS100K…
[Doc Malik] I went through that phase… I bought 10 domains… “stopmedicalmandates”… “stopmedicalvaccination”… because I was just thinking in my head… “What do I do…?” And I bought all these domains… I went a couple of marches… then I came across you and then this other organisation…
So… they had three domains…
[Lilith] He created some domains, and then in the end we all went for NHS100k. One of the numbers floating about was… about 70,000 staff were going to lose their jobs because we were currently counted as unvaccinated. So I think… it was about 70,000-100,000 of us were likely to lose our jobs. So we went with that domain, and we started to create…
We had a lot of input from a lot of people. It was just a lucky set of circumstances that worked out, and worked out for the best really… Every day there was something happening and we were just trying to figure out how to defeat it. And I think one of the best things about the NHS is that it is a template all round. So a lot of the policies are a template. So we worked out how to support people. And we had the Workers of England Union who were the biggest advocates against the vaccine mandates.
[Doc Malik] Yeah, good for them... I've had them on my podcast.
[Lilith] They were the biggest advocates. And I know people are a bit concerned about their background etc. But they were the only ones who were willing to make a stand for us. So they helped us with… providing information for us to give out to our members and people who are working… in the NHS. They were a big help with getting that information out there.
We had a lot of really strong activists out there, who created these groups and got information out and provided the support for their members… We had a really good strong group in the NHS. I think there was a group who were mainly maternity staff, and they were [if they all left the NHS] going to cripple one of the maternity wards in an area. And that was the fear that I think most NHS teams had… was there enough numbers to cripple their services? And we knew what power we had, because we knew that… the NHS… even back then was under pressure, and you couldn't afford to lose staff. And so I think we stood strong knowing that we could 100% cripple the service by just leaving.
[Doc Malik] This is such a powerful message to everyone listening, that even a small, dedicated, driven minority can make a huge change. And it wasn't just NHS workers… I was a full-time private surgeon. And I know, because I work in private hospitals… private reception staff… private secretarial staff… they were not vaccinated. They were going to lose their job… It's definitely more than the numbers they were giving, by the way.
That's another playbook… that they wanted us to isolate, and think that we were just fringe and we were alone and there's no one like us. But actually, we were legion. And the playbook is always to make you feel that you're nothing, and no one else is like you, and everyone else is coming on board. But they lie. They lie to us. They lie to us about how many people got the vaccine. They lie to us about how many people were not toeing the line. And in the future, if they ever try to do this… just know that even a few of us, if we just say no, if we do not comply… they can't carry on… The only way they have power is by us giving it to them.
And just enough of us need to say, “No.” Enough of us have to be troublemakers… to go, “No, we're not going to do this.” And honestly, I think it's like 10-15%... and we can just totally unravel it. And… remember, we would say the things like… “Let's just hold the line. Let's just face off. Don't back down.” And it was the ultimate game of chicken, and they chickened out.
[Lilith] But it was hard for a lot of people because… they had their fears… losing… jobs… and it was hard to get them to hold the line. And I understand how a lot of people may have folded. And I don't blame them at all… At least they stood with us as long as they could… But definitely… I think if people realise how much power they have, even if you're just one person… it makes a difference.
Because for me, it was like, “If I'm not doing it, who is doing it?” And that's what made me go out. Because if nobody's saying anything, then nobody is saying anything. But if you can be that one person, then at least someone can read your sign and say, “Actually, why are they standing out there?” And then the public can approach you and say, “Why are you standing for this?” Etc. And you can present your point. If you're not out there, you're not out there.
[Doc Malik] I couldn't agree more. I don't know… if you've ever gone back and watched that GB news interview you gave, and then when I came after that… Recently, it was the anniversary… I reposted it. I took the video from YouTube. I then posted it back on YouTube, and YouTube cancelled it and took it off. And so I'm like, “Hold on one second. I've actually literally got this video from your channel. I've reposted it…” And they wrote to me saying, “It's… disinformation. You've got a strike against your channel.” It's been downgraded.
And I'm like, “You could not make this sh*t up.” I'm literally targeted, by the way… there's things that other people will be saying… other big names… And their channels never get affected. Their videos never get taken down… And I just go, “Boo.” And… it comes down. So I know I'm targeted.
But anyway, I watched that video… I was defending the NHS, and I was a full-time private surgeon… Where were the other hundreds of thousands of doctors and NHS doctors? And I was talking about informed consent. I was talking about medical ethics. I was like, “Am I… literally in the whole country… Am I… the only doctor who's seeing this? Where are all the professors of medical ethics…? What?!”
It was the same [as] what you were saying… “If I don't do this, who's going to do this?” And that's why people just need to be brave and speak up. And you know what? Since then, like… the way you gave me so much strength, it comforts me that so many people come up to me and go, “Ahmad, do you know what? When I saw you on GB News… when I saw you speak up… when I saw your Instagram channel… you gave me so much strength… to know that I wasn't alone, I wasn't crazy.” It makes a difference. We made a difference.
[Lilith] I think everyone was doing their own thing. Even now, even though people may not have been speaking out publicly through... GB news or… other media outlets etc…. the fact that journals like… the BMJ… they are able to publish articles that are going against the grain about how lockdowns didn't work… I think there were some published articles saying that there are some concerns with the safety of the vaccines. So… people are working in their own different ways…
[Doc Malik] Absolutely…
[Lilith] It may not be out front the way we were doing it, but at least they're able to publish now, which makes a difference. And I think there were a few dissenters within those groups who were against the vaccine mandates.
[Doc Malik] Yeah. But… there's ways to not comply. And you can do it from within the system. You can sabotage it. You can throw sawdust into the machinery… not physically… symbolically. You can disrupt, and you can start subverting from within and say, “We're not going to comply. This is wrong. We don't believe in this…” Just don't believe the government narrative… don't go along just because you're scared…
Everyone, even one individual, can make a difference. And even if you speak to one other person [and] the two of you then decide that you're not going to do something, that's great. We can all do things. Like you said, not everybody has to go on TV and sacrifice their career, or whatever. But there are forms of resistance, and we should always resist… I've just come to the conclusion that governments are just tyranny, and have a monopoly of violence against us…
[Lilith] They are an authority who believes that they have our best interest at heart. But I do believe that no one knows our best interest except us.
[Doc Malik] I would claim that they pretend to have our best interests at heart when actually they have their own and their paymaster's interests at heart.
[Lilith] That’s probably more accurate.
[Doc Malik] The psyop is to make us feel like they're our Mum and Dad looking after us… when it couldn't be further from the truth.
I am reminded of Stockholm syndrome, discussed in this section of this post:
[Doc Malik] So anyway, it was very hard work because you're working, but you're having to invest all your free time. You're not getting paid. You're setting up all the stuff… campaigns, websites, interviews. What was it like?
[Lilith] It was hard. There were some sleepless nights trying to get some petitions out to Members of Parliament. Lots of planning and just getting everything ready and prepped. We're not funded by anyone… everything's… self-funded. So… trying to pay for certain things… we would have loved to have done some… big signage etc. But we just didn't have the funds for it. So everything was basically just grassroots, doing what we could do. And it was tiring…
[Doc Malik] I've talked about this with you and I said, “Why did you guys disappear?” You had such a great brand… so many people following you… so much love and respect for what you guys were doing. There's another organisation [Together?] that's got membership… lots of money and it's gone on to other things. Why didn't you stay [as] a force of good? We need you. Why did you disappear?
[Lilith] Some of the founders were thinking about continuing… but I think the truth of it was that we were so burnt out… we were working so hard to go against these mandates. Even at work, we were speaking up. It was taking its toll on us. So when they did overturn the mandates, we just kind of collapsed and just couldn't get back up.
It was hard, because it was… the fight of our lives… we just gave everything. And… there were so many groups that were doing their little things… with kids being vaccinated… informed consent. And we were trying to get people to go to those groups, because they were… more efficient, they knew their stuff, they had the information. So we were trying to get people to join in with theirs. We didn't want to grab their group. Ours was purely about the vaccine mandates.
[Doc Malik] You really were quite altruistic. So, in a nutshell… what is your problem with mandates?
[Lilith] My problem is that everyone has the right to choose, and we're smart enough to realise when something is a danger to us.
And I think during covid particularly… if more people were sick, then we would have been vaccinated anyways. But the truth of it is that, in the beginning, we hardly knew anyone who was suffering with covid. So that's why we were always cautious with the vaccines. We're like, “Well, we don't know anyone who's sick with it.”
And then to be told that you need to get it, you have to get it, or you don't have your job, you can't go shopping, you can't go to the movie theatres, you can't eat at this restaurant… just having those restrictions be placed upon a choice… that you should be free to choose… was… invading my space… If the traditional idea of a vaccine is to protect you against a disease, why are you scared of someone who's unvaccinated?
[Doc Malik] Bingo.
[Lilith] Why am I being restricted…? If your vaccine is so efficient, and works so well, why are you scared of getting the disease?
[Doc Malik] Don't you understand? It's like… when it's raining outside, I really need you to have the umbrella to keep me dry. That's the logic. It doesn't even make sense.
Why are you not wearing your umbrella? Don't you see I'm going to get wet now? It doesn't even make sense. And we're standing quite far apart, so it's not like I'm standing under your umbrella. It was just madness.
So… you're vaccinated, and apparently your vaccine is like a shield that protects you. What kind of shield is that then, that if an unvaccinated person comes along your shield just dissolves? Did it make even any sense to you?
[Lilith] It didn't make sense to me. And I hated it. And I think that's why I fought so hard, because… this doesn't make any sense at all. Nobody's giving me a good reason for it. They just want us segregated…
[Doc Malik] Sorry for interrupting... Now we've… realised with hindsight, [covid] wasn't that bad... we've got the luxury of now knowing… but at the time we didn’t… [how about] next time… it's really deadly… everyone's really dying. Don't you think… for the greater good… you should still be forced to take the shot?
[Lilith] No… Because everyone has a choice. And even now… studying in a medical field, you're taught not to coerce people… And people are allowed to make the choices that they make. You can have people who smoked all their lives and suffer from COPD and suffer with the symptoms… you still have to treat them...
So… you can choose to be vaccinated or not. You know the consequences of being unvaccinated. But regardless of what you've chosen, we're still going to treat you. And we should be treating you, because we have the great science of medicine.
[Doc Malik] You even said it yourself. Someone drank industrial pesticide. That's a stupid, daft thing to do… putting a burden on the NHS and the healthcare system. But you still treated him. Did you say, “Oh, no, I'm not going to do this…”?
[Lilith] Isn't that against our oath, our Hippocratic oath…?
[Doc Malik] It doesn't make sense, does it?
[Lilith] Well, to some people…
[Doc Malik] I saw a meme somewhere… and it was the people who… accuse certain people of being Nazi. “Oh, they're like a Nazi, far right…” But, at the same time, these same people wanted to force jab us with experimental toxic substances… Who's the Nazi…?
[Lilith] I know a lot of people in the freedom movement were comparing the segregation that was potentially going to occur with vaccine passports etc. to Nazi Germany. But [some people say], “You can't do that. You can't compare yourself to what happened in Germany...”
[Doc Malik] In a way [making the comparison is] respecting what happened in Germany. You're not saying anything horrible. You're actually saying, “Look, lest we forget…” Why do we have Remembrance Day and Holocaust Remembrance Day? Isn't it so that we remember, and we don't repeat the same mistakes?
So you're remembering, and saying, “By the way, these things happened in the past. This looks awfully like that sh*t all over again…”
[Lilith] It was clear segregation happening...
[Doc Malik] Medical apartheid…
[Lilith] It was happening during covid. But, “You can't compare them. It's not the same…” Apparently it's not the same.
But it was very similar, like the fact that… we were likely going to be not able to go shopping because of a passport that said “no”… not allowed to enter society… restricted… But [apparently] you can't compare it…
Here is Holocaust survivor Vera Sharav speaking in 2021 (text below):
I was only three and a half when my family and I were evicted from our home and deported to a concentration camp… Fear of infectious epidemics was exactly what the Nazis used to demonise Jews as spreaders of disease. Today the unvaccinated are being accused of being spreaders of disease.
And here is another Holocaust survivor, age 93, speaking at a 2021 anti-lockdown protest (transcript below, emphasis added):
I am in fact a survivor of the Holocaust. And the worst thing I have to tell you… even then nobody told us it was done for our own good. We all knew what was happening. And when I think today, when I see people masked, I think of the yellow star, which gave everybody liberty to aggress me, to insult me, to call me a carrier of disease, to spit on me even.
I would like to tell you that this [covid era] is worse. It is more insidious. It concerns more people… There is a hypocrisy in the public narrative that is absolutely unbearable… to say that we are doing this to protect the old. I would [rather] die in a state that gives me freedom than live [with this].
I have already outstayed my welcome by living here, and my life expectancy is probably not great, but I would gladly exchange this for the lives and livelihoods and happiness of generations that come after me to live their lives as I have [done]. To have masks, to see people defile their children with masks, is something totally unbearable to me.
Last question
[1:42:37]
[Doc Malik] You're on your deathbed… could be next week. You've got your loved ones all around you. Before you pass away and meet your maker, what words of wisdom or advice would you give everyone?
[Lilith] Stick to your guns and fight hard. Because I don't regret anything that I did over covid. It was like the first time I was alive, putting… just like you said... I put everything on the line. And I don't regret it, even the arrest, even the formal final written warning that I'm currently on.
But I stuck to my guns and I would rather that than bend the knee.
[Doc Malik] You absolute warrior. I love you so much. Honestly, I wish more people had this grit and fire in their belly like you do.
Related:
Dear Church Leaders most-read articles
Some posts, including a version of this one, can also be found on Unexpected Turns
The Big Reveal: Christianity carefully considered as the solution to a problem